Turkey’s chief EU negotiator: Turkish parliament unlikely to ratify protocols without “major developments” in Karabakh
Published: Friday October 23, 2009
Armenian Reporter
Ankara, Turkey - Nine journalists from Armenia were invited to Turkey on October 12-19 by the Hrant Dink Foundation. We had the opportunity to meet with the murdered journalist's family and lawyers and the editorial staff of the Turkish-Armenian daily Agos, and also to watch the World Cup qualifying match between the national soccer teams of Armenia and Turkey in Bursa. We also met with members of Turkish political, official, and media circles.
At the Turkish Grand National Assembly, we had a meeting with Egemen Bagis, Turkey's minister for European affairs and chief negotiator for European Union membership. Mr. Bagis lived in the United States from 1985, when he was 15, until 2002, when he was elected to the Turkish parliament. In the United States, he led the New York-based Federation of Turkish American Associations of America (FTAA), and gained a reputation for being rabidly anti-Armenian.
Before meeting with the Armenian journalists, Mr. Bagis gave a short opening statement. Representatives of Turkey's progressive TV stations and newspapers were present during his opening remarks. He described the Turkey-Armenia soccer match as a "game of friendship and a game of hope for the two nations."
Looking to the future
Referring to the AK (Justice and Development) Party, he said "When we came to power in 2002 as a new governing party, we had one idea of increasing Turkey's relations with all of our neighbors, including Armenia. Armenia was not an exception because we, Turkey, recognized the sovereignty and state of Armenia in 1991. For us, Armenia's sovereignty was as important as the other countries of the former Soviet Union and we thought the establishment of this new republic could be an opportunity to put some of our differences away and look at the future with more hope for both nations.
"In 2005, Turkey's Prime Minister [Recep Tayyip Erdogan] sent a letter to President Robert Kocharian proposing to study the events of 1915 and establish a committee of historians not only from Turkey and Armenia but also from third countries and open the archives in both countries and ask the third countries to open their archives. Some of the greatest archives are today in Boston and Turkish scholars have no access to most of these archives.
Together, as governments of Armenia and Turkey, we could ask those countries open their archives to see what really did happen. It took Armenia two years to respond that letter," Mr. Bagis said.
In fact, Mr. Kocharian replied to Mr. Erdogan's letter of April 10, 2005, two weeks later, on April 25, 2005, saying that historians had done their job and it was time for politicians to step up to the plate and focus on the future.
Continuing, Mr. Bagis said: "In 2007 dialogue started among high-level diplomats of the two countries and the elections of February 2008 in Armenia gave us another opportunity to revisit the idea of enhancing relations. After the elections, President [Abdullah] Gül sent a congratulatory letter to President [Serge] Sargsyan, and in his letter he proposed his wish and the wish of his nation to increase the relations between the two countries; and the response President Gül received from President Sargsyan was equally optimistic. President Sargsyan responded in a very constructive manner and later he extended an invitation to President Gül to come to Yerevan to watch the football [soccer] game together."
Focus on archives
After his opening remarks, Mr. Bagis requested that the Turkish media leave so that he could be alone with the Armenian journalists.
Armenian Reporter: Mr. Bagis, thank you for this opportunity. Before posing my question, I would like to remind you that the archives in Boston are open. [On May 24, 2008, the Armenian Reporter reported that the ARF Archives, to which Mr. Bagis was referring, had been open for the scrutiny of scholars and had been used by historians writing their dissertations.]
Egemen Bagis: So you are telling me if we go [to Boston], we will have access.
AR: Right.
EB: It is good to know. I was in Boston two weeks ago to deliver a speech in Harvard. If I had known I would visit them. Next time I will go.
EU membership obstacles
Armenian Reporter: Now let me address my question. We know how difficult Turkey's EU accession process is. There are a set of obstacles on the road to Turkey's EU membership and among them, as we know, is Turkey's blockade of Armenia. Sometimes the Armenian Genocide has been recalled. After a year of Armenian-Turkish soccer diplomacy, do you see that this process is much easier today for Turkey?
EB: I will be very frank with you. I think we should be frank with each other. Those issues - Turkey's relations with Armenia - were never at the center of Turkey's communication with the EU. In none of the admission criteria there is a clause saying Turkey should have diplomatic relations with Armenia. There is no such rule. We are not increasing our relations or we are not attempting to enhance the dialogue with Armenia because of the EU.
We are increasing our relations with Armenia because we are increasing relations with everyone, and Armenia should not be an exception. And in the South Caucasus there are problems - people are dying, people are suffering from poverty, people are homeless.
If your question deals with the history of the events of 1915, which we do not think would be classified as genocide, those cannot be prerequisite for my country's admission to the EU because the member countries of the EU have a lot worse historical wars and bloodshed. In one of the EU countries 6 million people died only 60 years ago. So those are not criteria for membership, but these are issues that we should have a dialogue about, and we should have discussed and we should be able to evaluate and try to understand to each other. So Turkey's approach to Armenia is not based on EU initiatives or EU demands.
Displaced persons
168 Zham: I would like to know is there any connection between the protocols and the Karabakh peace process?
EB: Azerbaijan is a brotherly and friendly neighbor country for us and a million Azeris are homeless because 20 per cent of Azerbaijani land is under Armenian occupation.
[Karabakh forces in fact control only 8 percent of Azerbaijani territory. The figure of 1,000,000 displaced persons includes Armenians who were displaced. The areas in question had a population of about 450,000 before the war. With under 200,000 refugees from Armenia and Azerbaijan border areas, that makes for about 650,000 Azerbaijani displaced persons. Armenians displaced from Azerbaijan, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Armenia's border areas number about 350,000.]
The Karabakh issue is an issue which is one of the core problems of the instability in South Caucasus. We think the Minsk Group should be supported in their efforts to resolve that conflict and Turkey wants to see an enhanced dialogue between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The recent high-level talks between President Sargsyan and President Aliyev are good news and we support ongoing talks.
Of course, Turkey and the Turkish government has shown its good will by signing the protocols, but it is up to Turkish parliament members to approve those protocols. Each and every member of the parliament is very independent by nature. I think the signing of the protocols is an opportunity for all the countries in the region, including Azerbaijan and Armenia, to work out their differences and to help the Minsk Group find a solution to the problem, which would in the long term help all the players. The cost of having no solution is so high that the compromises we will make in finding a solution are going to be very small fraction.
I think it is an interest for all of us that Armenia withdraws from the lands that are unfairly occupied and Azeris understand the difficulties of Armenia's domestic political nature and come to a conclusion of a mutually acceptable status. If one of the countries leaves the dialogue with too much satisfaction, that means that the other country has lost. If one of the countries feels that they have been cheated in these negotiations, the other will not accept the solution. I think President Sargsyan is a very courageous person by going to the diaspora and trying to explain to them what he is trying to do. It is painful but someone has to act as a leader.
Cultivating doubt
Armenia Now: You mentioned 6 millions Jews and Germany, but Germany accepted what happened.
EB: According to the way I was educated, which is different than the way you were educated, the number of Armenians who lost their lives is around to 600 to 700 thousand, and the number of Muslims were around 2 million. In the case of Germany, the number of Jews that were killed was 6 million but the number of Germans nobody knows.
[German casualties in World War II are not unknown; they are estimated at between 6.5 and 8.5 million - both military (5.5 million) and civilian. Just as Germans in World War II did not die at the hands of Jewish civilians, a vast majority of Turks killed in World War I did not die from acts by Armenian civilians.]
What happened with our Armenian population was painful, we accept it, but it was a civil war, during the World War, and it was painful for all parties. But again, I was not there in 1915, you were not there in 1915, neither you, nor I, do not have factual information about what happened. That is why this historical issue should be studied by historians and by objective historians not only Turkish and Armenian historians, but historians from the United States, Germany, and whoever is interested.
There may be a group of historians, archaeologists, scientists, academicians from different studies; they should get together and have full access to all the archives around the world, and then they should tell us their findings. At that time, political leaders from Armenia and Turkey should get together put these findings in front of them and discuss what to do. You can not classify as genocide without having historical proof. I think a group of historians, scientists should deal with the issues of the past, while we - politicians, diplomats should build economic, cultural, trade, and political cooperation for the future. And historians simultaneously can do their job.
Linking ratification
Armenian Reporter: Mr. Bagis, from what I understand from your comments, Turkey will not open the border with Armenia until there is a breakthrough in the Karabakh talks.
EB: I did not say that. The Turkish government signed a protocol in an attempt to open the border, but those protocols need to be ratified by the Turkish parliament. And the way I know my parliament, it would be very hard to get a majority vote from the Turkish parliament without major developments in the Karabakh issue.
And I think, the signing of the protocol will give a chance and an opportunity for leaders both in Azerbaijan and Armenia to work out their differences and come to a solution. Any solution accepted by Presidents Aliyev and Sargsyan, and approved by the publics of Azerbaijan and Armenia, will have full Turkish blessing and support.
Signing a protocol might be a very good beginning but at the end it does not solve the problems of those one million homeless people. The protocols have to be followed up with an action plan, and at the end, people should feel better about their future in both countries. Without concrete developments on Karabakh and on the disputes between Armenia and Azerbaijan - because members of the Turkish parliament feel an attachment to Azerbaijan, this includes myself because we share the same language, the same culture, the same religion, we share the same songs. Just like if Turkey and Armenia could sign a protocol, I am sure Azerbaijan and Armenia could sign a protocol. The protocols we signed between Turkey and Armenia should motivate and support a further protocol between Azerbaijan and Armenia as well.
Armenian Reporter: After returning back to Armenia, without mentioning your name and this interview with you, I will write that Turkey in the near future will not open the border.
EB: Do not be so sure. I am more optimistic than you are. I think Turkey will open the border and Armenia, Turkey, and Azerbaijan will come to a conclusion very soon.